The Mapp
Life is a journey, and every journey needs a guide—or at least a good story. Welcome to The Mapp, hosted by Michael Pursley, where we navigate the messy, beautiful business of being human. The podcast's name is a nod to both Michael A. Pursley Podcast and the "maps of meaning" that help us find our way in life.
Born during the stillness of the COVID-19 lockdowns, The Mapp emerged from Michael’s hunger for understanding. Inspired by long-form conversations that spark insights and refine ideas, Michael dives into deep, authentic dialogues with curiosity and humor. From life’s profound mysteries to its absurdities, nothing is off-limits.
Each episode unearths the treasure of human stories: wisdom, laughter, and moments of profound connection.
At its core, The Mapp is about the human story. It’s a place where problems shrink, purpose grows, and laughter and revelation often arrive hand in hand. For Michael, the podcast is more than a platform—it’s a mission. It’s an effort to create a space where wisdom is shared, ideas are tested, and hearts are healed. Whether through a profound insight or an unexpected laugh, Michael hopes listeners walk away from The Mapp with a sense that they, too, are part of a bigger story—one that is still being written and, in the words of another great storyteller, echoes through eternity.
The Mapp
The Poverty Paradox: Why Your Handout Might Be Someone's Handcuffs
What if your charity is doing more harm than good?
In this honest and unsettling conversation, Michael Pursley and Ethan Bricker take a hard look at poverty—not just as an economic condition, but as a deeply human struggle shaped by broken systems, generational patterns, and misunderstood virtues.
This isn’t about easy answers or feel-good solutions. It’s about the moral complexity of helping others. Why do some families remain in poverty despite decades of assistance? Can generosity, untethered from wisdom, actually harm the very people we’re trying to help?
Drawing from real stories in ministry—where food trucks meet entitlement and third-generation reliance on handouts challenges our idea of progress—this episode explores the limits of charity and the need for something deeper: relationship, responsibility, and spiritual clarity.
Pursley and Bricker navigate the tension between unconditional love and boundaries, between grace and accountability. They explore how churches sometimes compete rather than collaborate, and how our need to feel virtuous can overshadow the actual needs of those we serve.
Whether you're weary from compassion fatigue, frustrated with ineffective systems, or simply trying to live out your values with more discernment, this conversation doesn’t flinch—and it might just reshape how you think about helping others.
“Love without truth is sentimentality. Truth without love is brutality. Real help requires both.”
“We must learn to give not to feel good, but to do good—and those are rarely the same.”
Check out the fellowship Ethan pastors and subscribe to the youtube channel here:
https://www.theclearing.net/
https://www.youtube.com/@theclearing1
#PovertyMindset #GenerationalPoverty #HelpingWithoutHurting #ChurchAndCommunity #FinancialStewardship #EmpowermentOverCharity #CommunityCollaboration #SocialResponsibility #TransformativeGiving #NuancedConversations #MoralComplexity #FaithAndAction #CompassionWithWisdom #PodcastEpisode #BuzzsproutPodcasts #ChristianPodcast #SocialImpact
Thank you for joining The Mapp. If this resonates with you, don’t forget to subscribe and share it with others who might find it meaningful. Subscribe, leave review, and follow us on social media to stay updated and join our community of explorers. Together we navigate life’s pathways.
You ever notice how some folks talk about poverty like it is just about money, Like if you could hand somebody a check, that problems are just going to disappear. But many people don't stop and ask what's actually underneath that, Like how did people get there, why do they stay there and what would it really take to get someone out? In this episode, me and my friend Ethan Bricker dig into it, Not with some polished feel-good charity talk, but the kind of honesty that stings a little bit but also might be healing something. If you let it, we talk about poverty like it really is. Sometimes it's bad luck, Sometimes it's a broken system and sometimes it's a mindset that gets passed down like a family recipe for fear and survival.
Speaker 1:And look, we all have a part to play as society, as neighbors, as people of faith. We got to wrestle with how to respond, Not just throwing money at the problem, but leaning into and cultivating real stewardship, the kind that says we've been given something and we're responsible in how we use it, not just for ourselves but for each other. You'll hear stories about folks trying to walk out community Not perfectly, but honestly and people sharing what they've got, asking hard questions, learning how to help without turning it into some power game. We talk about generosity, burnout hard questions, learning how to help, without turning it into some power game. We talk about generosity, burnout boundaries and what happens when love isn't backed by wisdom. And look, it's no secret. We're living in a time where everybody is shouting, nobody's listening, everything's political, everybody's offended and it feels like you have to pick a side just to say something. But somewhere in all that noise there has to still be room for honest questions and maybe even a shot at understanding each other, not by watering down the truth, but learning how to carry it with both conviction and compassion. Truth doesn doesn't bend to opinion, it just is. And the pursuit of truth at its best is a pursuit of justice, and I mean real justice. That's not about punishment or settling scores or vengeance. That's about reclamation, about reconciliation, about transcendence and redemption, and it's about returning what was lost or raising up what was broken into something higher. Obviously, we live in a world that's shaped by human nature, and so it's messy, it's limited, it's full of a lot of trade-offs. So we walk that tightrope in this conversation. We aim high, trying to walk humbly, but that's the tension this conversation tries to hold. Humbly, but that's the tension this conversation tries to hold.
Speaker 1:So if you're someone who wrestles with those kinds of questions and you're trying to do that without losing sight of people in the middle, this one's for you. Welcome to the map. I'm glad that you jumped on me and you were kind of going back and forth and there was a guy who I'm great friends with and kind of discipling. He reached out to me with a question. It was kind of a funny question. So me and him both are in like the Medicare and ACA space and we deal a lot of times with a lot of low income um people trying to guide them through that, that space. And um, he just says he basically said like hey, I'm reading through James and uh, I just want to know, like, do you think that you know people in poverty now are worse than people who are in poverty in that time? Cause, like in James, you know, and there's this instruction about taking care of people who are poor. And he's like because he's like just the people I deal with now are so despicable. So I was like okay, it's an interesting question.
Speaker 1:And my parents have they've ran a ministry that was basically like a food pantry and they deliver. It's like kind of like a Meals on Wheels as well. On the weekends they deliver meals. It's oftentimes the older people who are, uh, financially deprived. But then, um, they have a food pantry where people come in hygiene products, clothes, they get backpacks away to like school kids and stuff like that. That's a year-round thing. And so then I asked my dad the question I'm like, what do you think? And and my dad just kind of said well, you of course always want to have safety nets in place to protect people. But his observation now, after doing this for about 20 years, is they started servicing and helping people and then their kids started coming and then the children of those people started coming. So now they're into three generations of poverty.
Speaker 1:And so he just had this whole conversation around poverty as a, as a circumstance, but then poverty as a mindset and then within, like the biblical narrative. You know, at that time human nature is human nature. I'm sure there were swindlers who, like you know, there's this movie, uh called trading places with eddie murphy and uh akroyd. Have you ever seen that movie?
Speaker 2:no, I don't think I've seen that one. Maybe I have.
Speaker 1:It's from the 80s, you would enjoy this comedy film. But basically Dan Ackroyd works on Wall Street. Eddie Murphy is just this street guy. He's kind of a swindler, and so he was acting like he was blind but also like he had no legs. So he's sitting on this box of wheels, he's yelling, and then the cops just come and they grab him by the arms and pick him up and then his legs drop and he's like, oh my God, I have legs. And he takes his grab I can see, praise the Lord. And then he just took off running. But in the film the partners in this firm end up pushing Dan Aykroyd out and then they had a bet with each other that anybody could do his job, and so they get Eddie Murphy in there and then they groom him and turn him into this really successful.
Speaker 2:It's like a comedy of the pursuit of happiness with Will Smith. That's what you're describing right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good film, but it kind of highlights that point of like people are people, are people. And like the rich people were like swindling people. And then he's swindling people. But anyways, yeah, I kind of just like went back and forth with Derek on the principle of like. That it is like a little bit subjective because we see the person of Jesus actually rebuking people. After he's like, the crowd starts following him and he's like literally saying the only reason you guys are showing up is just to get resources from me.
Speaker 1:And it's not that I have a problem with like, giving you food to eat. It's just that that's not the highest priority. There's a list of priorities. There's a priority about your well-being and your soul and your spirit, and then I'm trying to feed that part of you and you're not consuming that you. All you want to consume is bread and fish, and it's going to be an issue. And then, when the, the, this, whenever there's this extravagant act where the, where the lady breaks the, the perfume bottle which is like about a year's wage, that kind of perfume, Judas, judas, who was already like laundering. It was already poor.
Speaker 2:He's poor, poor in mindset. You know that's that, poverty mindset.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, but people like just kind of like throw it out there, that judah judas was probably like already like um, embezzling money from the funds anyways, but he was like, oh, we could have took this money and used it for the poor, and and j said, like poverty is always going to be a thing, like you're not actually ever going to get rid of poverty, and so, you know, this begs the question did he mean like circumstantial poverty? Did he mean like the spirit of poverty, the mindset that kind of feeds into that, that makes it generational? Or did he mean both? I don't know, but I'd love to kind of hear your I know I threw a lot at you, but your hot take on that.
Speaker 2:No, I've got a few thoughts on that. I mean so as a pastor. What I have seen and honestly it's been I think the reason why so many pastors get kind of jaded pretty quickly is they've they see how they see how people uh kind of take advantage of the resources of the church or their brothers and sisters. Um, and this is just my experience, so I'm only speaking for me, but I've seen people um come into the church and say you know, we can't pay her, we can't pay her rent, we can't pay her utilities, we're going to be homeless if we don't pay her rent. Um, and then we, you know, we'll, we step up to to help and assist with that rent. And then a few weeks later we find out, you know, that that person just went and bought Brandon Lake tickets and they're they're like we're going to little Caesars arena here, you know, and and, uh, and and.
Speaker 2:Then there's other circumstances where it's kind of like a repeat thing, where it's like where I've seen people they talk about going to this church and then they get some help and then eventually the pastor says I'm not going to keep helping you. So they change churches and they do the same thing. Then they change churches and they do the same thing. And then they come to me and they're like, yeah, I went to this church, they wouldn't help us out, like they helped us a few times but they won't help us anymore. And there is this like kind of this, like it's what you're talking about. It's this repeat cycle of poverty, this mindset of of just not stewarding finance as well, and that I don't I don't necessarily equate that to just this person's an idiot and they're they're just trying to be difficult, they're trying to be a leech. You know, I definitely don't think that's the case. I think that a lot of people don't have mothers and fathers who have taught them how to, how to steward their finance as well. They've not been in a culture where, um, the idea of savings or emergency fund or anything like that isn't is a even on the radar for them. But, um, I, I've just, I've seen people just live in the cycle.
Speaker 2:So, like one of the things we started doing as a church is if we are going to help you pay a bill, you know you're part of our church. That's kind of a big thing too for us, is it's like you need to be part of our community, because it's kind of that acts acts for thing of like, we hold all things in common for those who are in common with us, like, if you are in common with us in the sense that you're going after the same goal, you're here, part of this community, you're being discipled, you're being equipped, you're also being corrected, um, and trained up in righteousness, um, those, that's kind of the thing where we we say, okay, we're, we're going to help you with this, but we're also going to give you this Dave Ramsey, uh, total money makeover book. And and the next time you come in and I just tell people, hey, the next time you come and ask me for money, I'm going to ask did you go through this whole book with your spouse? Are you guys actually budgeting, are you? You know what I mean? Cause, for me, it's like it's good to give, to be generous, it's good to help, but it's also it's what's better is to teach people how to handle their finances well, but, uh, our biblical theology professor this week actually said this and was like man that's so helpful.
Speaker 2:He was talking about how, when Jesus says help the poor, or James talks about helping the poor, and there's that Matthew 25, you know I was thirsty, you gave me a drink, I was naked, you gave me clothes, I was in jail, you'd visited me, and those different things. There's an expectation that the good news is also being preached as well within that context. And so, like my biblical theology professor said, helping someone's great, but filling somebody's bank account doesn't actually help their soul, and there is kind of this level of like great, you filled somebody's bank account doesn't actually help their soul. Um, and, and there is kind of this level of like great, you filled somebody's bank account, but money is temporary, money is going to be here and then it's going to be gone. You're going to spend it and it'll be gone. Like, so it's great you can help somebody for a moment, but what's better is to lead someone out of poverty and into a mindset or a life of being able to steward their resources well, and I think part of that starts with it starts with the gospel.
Speaker 2:You know, for me, in the idea of like, like, yes, a hundred percent, if you were hungry or you were thirsty, of course it's no questions asked, you are going to get help. However, you know there's there's also the that you're going to be hungry tomorrow. You're going to be thirsty tomorrow. What I want is for you to experience the bread and the wine that doesn't ever run out. That's what I want you to experience, if you can experience that, that's that's number one priority. And I think sometimes we rank like our fleshly, like you know desires and wants and needs first, and I think it's it's gotta be the gospel first, then it's gotta move into those basic needs, and then it's a question of how, what? What do we have in common? What? How are we living in common? Do you know what I mean? Um, I heard this, this too.
Speaker 2:A pastor was talking about, uh, uh, planting a church recently, and he was asking this other pastor to come over and help them plant a church. And he said what's the? What's the package? Um, like, what's the benefits package? What's the salary? You know those things. And he said well, you'll sleep on my couch, and if, and, and if I'm hungry, you'll be hungry, but if I'm full, you'll be full, um, and I loved that statement of just like you'll, we'll be. Everything will be in common between us. You know, if you're with us, if you'll be eating what I'm eating, if I'm hungry, you'll be hungry. If I'm full, you'll be full Um, and I I do think that there's there's a lack in the Christian community of commonality together, and I think that's where it's like. But commonality only works when you're not coming into the culture thinking what am I going to get out of this Now? What can I contribute to this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think you have like people who are givers and people who are takers, uh, in like just kind of like generalizing. They gravitate towards that and what you're kind of hitting on is that is the, the, the institution of christianity. Like when we form like, okay, we're gonna have a building and and we're gonna meet here and do that In America. It's very much like from a consumer mindset, which we've heard that like countless times, but it is literally like what can I get out of this?
Speaker 1:And so I've heard people, you know, there's people who have businesses where, literally, they just do that they audit churches and they teach them how to be more attractive and like where are your deficits? They teach them how to be more attractive and where are your deficits? And it is in the same way how somebody who wants to make music and they consider them an artist and they start working with a record company you're still producing music, but the record company is like so the product sold? Blah, blah, blah. What do you mean? The product, these are my songs, this is something I pour myself into. And so there's this weird kind of overlap of um overlap there.
Speaker 1:And I think, like when you have, uh, you know, a group of people who are pursuing, uh, a mission or a vision to like the city or wherever they're at, that the, you commoditize the people who you're trying to reach as well. So it's kind of like a two, two way street of like, how many people can we and how many people can we lead to? So you're commoditizing people, but then your institution becomes the commodity. And so being able to break that mindset really yeah to your point is do we have relationship with each other?
Speaker 1:And I think like if you and I've heard this saying, I'll probably butcher it, but it's basically like every young person, if they have a good heart, should be a communist. But every when you get older, if you have a brain between your ears, you'll be support free trade. And the idea is just that in theory it all makes sense to like you want to help people and you want to have generosity, like abundance of generosity in your heart to help people who have need. But as you get older, you understand human nature and there has to be like it's a game of trade-offs and there has to be some conditional elements um to that to be able to help people. And again, you know when we're talking about in in the, there's like text about when you harvest from your field, like leave a little bit in the corner of the border.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you leave the whole border around the outside.
Speaker 1:So, to your point, we're talking about people literally having like sustenance to like, not die, versus like. When we say poverty now, we're talking about an income level, yes, and so there's a difference of extreme poverty, where people do not have the basic needs they need to sustain their body, to function and live, and they will die if they don't have them versus like. I am not at the income level of a class system, so the lower, the middle and the upper class. And when I was in Mozambique I had like I don't know like six 700 international students there, and then they had like I don't know like six 700 international students there, and then they had like three 400 local pastors and they were asking the Western people or the international students, like, do you have a house, how many cars do your family have, like all this stuff? And we were like you know, you put your hand up as this many, this many. And then they switched and they said raise your hand if you had a family member who's died from starvation, raise your hand if you have a family member who's died from thirst. And like, over half of the pastors raised their hand when they asked these questions and it was all on purpose to just make us aware of a lot of cheap stuff that we say in the West and especially within, like prosperity circles.
Speaker 1:That stuff doesn't work when you're in the poorest places in the world, when you're in like under suppressive regimes et cetera. Like this country is a money making mechanism. That's why it created some of the greatest wealth that the world has ever known is because it's a money-making mechanism and we become very centered around that. But if I don't have a relationship with the person who's giving me the money and that person doesn't have oversight on how I'm spending it, then it becomes like there's a huge disconnect and it's like a piggy bank that I can just like an infinite piggy bank. But if people have a okay, ethan has given me X amount of funds and Ethan has oversight on how I'm spending them funds, now I have a relationship with where the funds are coming directly and now I have a responsibility, what you were kind of alluding to, earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got right into it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Responsibility, yeah, responsibility, yeah, yeah, well, and, and so that was the kind of the thing is, I think, as I think the majority of your listeners are maybe Christians, I don't know, um, but if you're coming from a Christian context, the question is, what's my responsibility? And last month we had in Detroit, um, we had a, a mom who was sleeping in her car in a car garage because she was homeless. She had a, like a nine year old and a five year old, and she woke up in the five year old froze to death in her car, um and so, and, and I gathered with some of the different pastors in the area and, and she, they're not, they're not even really in our area, they're an hour and a half away, um, but we just, it was like we came to the Lord and we're like God forgive us for anything I have done and what I've left undone. And those are kind of the undone situations of responsibility where, like, uh, right now we've been in discussions with, like, uh, salvation Army, habitat for Humanity, all these different nonprofits that are in my local area, and everybody kind of has the same conclusion that the issue isn't we need more resources.
Speaker 2:The issue is we need the information to get out there of what's available, and that is kind of the thing is like America is so much richer than every other country. Our poverty isn't really even poverty if you're taking advantage of what's already available to you. So, like this mom, there were multiple shelters she could have gone to. Really even poverty if you're taking advantage of what's already available to you. Um, so, like this mom, there were multiple shelters she could have gone to. There were multiple um places that could have taken her in. There's multiple places that would have given her food and resources and things like that. The issue is either she doesn't know about these things, or um, uh, or or it's just she has, doesn't have the resources to get there Um, you know or it's a shame.
Speaker 1:There's that shame factor, you know, involved as well, you know do you think in her specific scenario I don't know how this works exactly, but if you rock up to like a shelter cause you have no food or no place to go with a five and nine year old that she had a fear like cps or somebody was going to take her yeah, away from her yeah, maybe, maybe, um, I I know that, I know from from um we, we adopted our youngest.
Speaker 2:I know from that experience that, um, there's a plenty of places in detroit that will take in families and I don't think you're at risk of losing your kid, unless of course, there's a major neglect happening, because I just know personally the person that we are in relationship with, that she's not had those issues with her kids to our understanding. Obviously, we're disconnected from that to a certain degree. So I don't, you know, I'm not sure, but but again, I think that the the issue in the West is we have an abundance of everything, so much so that even you know, like Salvation Army, they have this thing where you go to the it's called the Citadel in our. They have this thing where you go to the it's called the Citadel in our. It's their main place. You go there and and you ask for certificates and they'll, and they say what do you need? And you write down everything you need and then you can go to the Salvation Army and get everything you need for free. Um, that we have, uh, habitat for Humanity that does the same thing, where you can go in, you can get furniture and things like that that you're needed.
Speaker 2:So there's, there's so much resources out there for the poor that some in in our context we're not in Sudan, we're not in Africa, where it's like no, there's really. Just they need the resources, they need some way, they need administration, they need some way to get these things to them. In our context, it's like it's almost everywhere. They need some way to get these things to them. In our context, it's like it's almost everywhere. The issue is we either don't know how to get there, or I know a big, big thing that I run into of hearing of drug addicts and stuff is I say hey, well, why don't you go to this shelter?
Speaker 2:And they can't go to that shelter anymore because they went there and they blew up on everybody, they freaked out and you know, and they're not welcome back. So some of it, too, is you just get kicked out and whatnot. But, um, it is amazing to me as a pastor how many different stories I hear, cause I'll hear someone say, oh yeah, this person's homeless, I'm like that person's homeless and they have an F-150, you know. And I'm like like Whoa, you know, it's like, you know, it's like they're homeless but they have an F-150 and they have a job and it's like our version of homeless is so different than everybody else. You know in third world countries, it's just so different.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, again, like I think especially I think it's got exacerbated with social media but there's been this perpetuation that you know, you, you deserve just to be wildly successful, um, and just like you have unlimited access to money and to funds, and I don't know. I think it just creates this weird discontentment inside of people. Um, that just didn't exist as much, at least in our certainly our grandparents' generation. Um, obviously our parents' generation, like that's where the, the philosophy came in. Our certainly our grandparents' generation, Obviously our parents' generation, like that's where the philosophy came in of the whole market is driven by greed which.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's a fallacy, but it certainly is a good marketing tool and people keep pushing that marketing tool. But my dad's take on it was he said of course we always want to help people. He's just, it's just been his observation that anytime anything is just given to people, it doesn't create gratitude, seemingly, uh, and most of the people he sees it creates a like a new watermark or a baseline of entitlement. Well, I've, I've given this and and it's fun You've done sales your last job. You were in sales, right, yeah. So every sales organization I've been a part of has this weird dynamic of you could set a record, like as a group, you'd like break a record, and now that becomes the baseline, like yeah for sure yeah, we, we've never done over 100, but now we got 100.
Speaker 1:Now we have to do that every single time and then, and then it's like you get to like 150 or 200 and they're like guys, we just figured out that we had all these limiting beliefs and it's just like nothing in nature really functions like this, nothing.
Speaker 2:And so I feel like Dude, that's the company I worked for that is. It is like you are terrified of hitting your goal at the end of the year because they would. They would bump your goal a ton the next year. So, like my best year ever I hit. It was five million of just that's straight profit, five million dollars of profit. And then I get done with that year and I'm thinking, man, I just crushed it, awesome.
Speaker 2:And then my leaders come to me and it's just so greedy it's. They come to me and they go. They go okay, you hit 5 million, what do you want to do this year? And I was like 5 million and they're like, no, it's gotta be better, it's gotta be. You have to grow. Like we, our core value is growth. I'm like that's great for you, but like when do we just say enough is enough for us, you know, or at least for my contribution? So I was like I'm doing 5 million, I don't care, you know it's so, it's it's. There's this constant well, we have to grow. That's what America does. We grow, we grow the budget, we grow the more.
Speaker 2:And I do want to say this that I, you know, even with everything I said about responsibility, I do want to say we have a responsibility to the poor.
Speaker 2:I don't want anybody to hear this and think, oh, I don't have a responsibility.
Speaker 2:We all have responsibility. But I think sometimes that responsibility looks like pointing someone in the direction of a place that is well equipped to do the thing, because I've seen a lot of people or nonprofits or churches try to just be like oh well, we're going to do a homeless ministry, we're going to do a soup kitchen, we're going to do this, and we're just trying to do something that someone down the block is doing 10 times better and it would be better to just send the funds that we want to contribute to their mission because they're doing it a ton better than us. And I think that's like the thing I see in my context is everybody's like well, I want to do it, and then they, they want to be the one to spearhead it, but there's already somebody in the community just absolutely killing it, doing it perfectly. But we, you know, but the responsibility just needs to be the goal, not kind of that institutionalized, like I want to be recognized as the one who did it, you know.
Speaker 1:And there's this like weird connection of of I want to be known for for this, rather than just don't let your left hand know what your right hand's doing, you know from a, from an organizational thing yeah, I think like people misconstrue like paul said, be all things to all people, meaning like try to like get inside the head and the heart of other people around you and like empathize and have compassion for them. He didn't say be everything to everybody. And I feel like that's what people try to do is like we're gonna our church, we have the food pantry, we have this, we have to, and we're doing it on a really low level comparatively to what you just said of like somebody else who's like crushing it. And I've even had this, like we had a meeting, a group of people, as in our fellowship, they were like uh, um, yeah, why don't we start this thing? And then someone's like, yeah, but they already did that.
Speaker 1:And I was like, well, if someone's already doing it, it's like way less energy and lift, and like you don't have to reinvent the wheel, just go volunteer there. If you're the one who's saying like let's do it, go volunteer there and just support what they're doing, um, because it's just to your point, if we're gonna, if we just looked at our resources collectively in the cities that we're in and just each individual fellowship has like a part to play in the city as a whole versus. Yeah, I think, like to your point, like I'm agreeing, your church does something unique where you're talking to me about it, where you guys have a surplus board and then a needs board and just make that like that's part of what you were talking about before, like people need to be aware of, like resources that were there. You told me kind of a cool story about that, but maybe share a little bit about how that functions.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we as a church, we, when we started, we said we are going to make sure we have a tithe of tithe structure, Um, so everything that's given to our church 10% of the tithe is put aside for the needs of the poor in the expansion of the gospel. Obviously that, but it has to be like it's like external, not internal. So we have that like structure in place to be like okay, if you need help, we want to help you. I know a lot of what I. What I said earlier made it sound like I was very resistant to helping. It's definitely the. It's the opposite, it's it's more so. That's. I guess, if there's anything I want to convey, it's the responsibility of being generous. Is exactly what you said. Where there has to be this level of I'm responsible for not only being generous but also for do something that's going to affect the longevity of impact in the area, um, so, anyway, so that's, that's one thing we do. But then we just started this community exchange board is what we call it. We're literally we're two months into this and you have this a surplus side, and you have the need side. If you have a need, anybody in our church can do it. You just walk up to the board, the cards are right there and you say I need, um, I need a couch. That was the first item on it and we had a couch.
Speaker 2:So this, the single mom she had just, uh, basically moved out from her, like fiance's uh house is trying to, you know, basically just kind of get her her life oriented towards the Lord. And she's like I'm moving out, I need, I need a couch. So she puts it up there, I need a couch. So we're like dude, we have a couch sitting in our, in our barn that we just been sitting there. So we've got a couch. So it was like, okay, hey, we've got a couch, come pick it up. Next person up she is. She just expected nothing to happen. She's like I need a large men's depends for someone she was caring for, like the, like adult diapers, and she's expected that, like there's no way anybody in our church is going to need this. And then my mom and dad were like dude, we've got a whole bunch of boxes of this from when we were taking care of my grandpa, and so they're like, hey, you know they connected with her, like, hey, we've got that for her. So within the same week, these little needs. There they feel little, but it's all things in common where it's like oh, you have a need, I've got that.
Speaker 2:And then the P, there's the surplus side, where, if you just have, you're like I just don't need this anymore, it's been sitting around. I'm trying to live a life of simplicity, um, of less consumeristic and more just, uh, enjoying to the fullest extent what I already have. Um, so the needs, the surplus board. You just put up anything you have. So there's like end tables on there right now, there's vacuums, there's a car seats that are brand new, and you know things like that. So any mom, any person who's just like oh, I could really use that. They just walk up to the board and they see the person's number, they just text the person that is in our church and then they connect and they swap.
Speaker 2:It's like facebook marketplace, but church wise, I guess you know um. So it's been really cool to see. Um, you know we're we're very new into it. So there's there's definitely, like you know, it'll be interesting to see. I'm sure we'll get some weird ones come up. Or it's like I need an iphone or an I, you know, I need, you know, uh, like who knows what? You know? A sauna or a, an ice bath, whatever you know who, who knows what could come up on there. So we're it's still very like who knows what could come up on there. So we're it's still very like who knows what could happen with us where it could get weird, but so far it's been really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Well, that's you know, and I really liked that when you shared that cause. I think I'm just a very, like, practical person and I just feel like having something like that in place, cause a lot of times people are hoarders like especially in our parents' generation. More so I feel like our generation we've had to like move so much. A lot of us have had to move around, so we kind of have you can't, you can't just take everything in the sink kitchen with you, so some people throw things in storage. I know people my age who like moved around a lot. They just kept everything in storage in their hometown or whatever. But most people, uh, you know, there was a point in our life where we had two suitcases. That was literally it. That's all we had. I had a big suitcase, my wife had a big suitcase and that was it. So being able to help people offload some of their hoard is good.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned we were talking a little bit about responsibility and you were talking about not contributing basically into a culture to perpetuate it. We talked about generational poverty earlier. So I remember like when I was in mozambique, one of the things that they strictly instructed us to do is never give anybody anything. Uh, on the street, like never, like it was like, and they explained like this is literally the poorest country in the world. At one point they had a 98 unemployment rate. Um, do not give anybody anything because you're feeding into a beggar culture and we're desperately trying to like break that culture.
Speaker 1:And so it was to the point where, like, literally like, we had like these big water bottles or just like a plastic water bottle and, um, you'd like drink it and it'd be finished, and then the kids would want the water bottle. Sometimes people would fashion shoes out of it, sometimes they would just use it themselves, like, oh, they have now a plastic water bottle, they'll fill it up their house. And I'd have to say no. And then there's not trash cans regularly there, so it's like a third world country. So then I had to fold it up in front of them, put it in my pocket, go walk and try to find a trash can later to put it in my pocket, go walk and try to find a trash can later to put it in, but they were very adamant about us not giving anybody anything.
Speaker 1:And then there was it. It was quite interesting because, uh, they, they understood the psychology a little bit of westerners. And so these kids would come up and they'd be like brother, brother. When I say kids, I mean like five, eight, 10 years old, kind of in this age bracket. And they'll come up and they say brother, brother, I'm so hungry, give me some food. Or, brother, give me. I like your, like. If you had like swimming shorts or flip-flops, whatever they like it. They were like please give it to me, and then I'll be like no shorts or flip flops, whatever they like it. They were like, please give it to me, and then I'll be like, no, I'm not going to give it to you.
Speaker 2:And they're like then you're going to hell because, yeah, and then they just quote the scripture about if you're, if you're, if your brother has, like doesn't have a shirt, give it to him.
Speaker 1:And like all this, tony, he's a very charming kid, he wasn't so abrasive like that and I seen him get sandals. Somebody went and got him sandals and he would show up with no shoes. He's like I need sandals. And they got him sandals, brand new sandals. And then a couple of days later I seen him talk to somebody else and they went and got him sandals. I was like, tony, what happened to your sandals? He's like oh, brother, I'm so little that, uh, you know, people beat me up and they took my sandals and I was like, okay, so we're walking through the village, like, uh, this is like weeks later we're walking the sandals bro I kid you not, this kid had 28 pairs of sandals like lined up at his house.
Speaker 1:He was just hoarding sandals and then someone said yeah, it is a local scam where you'll go to the shoe guy and you'll buy it, and then he'll come back and he'll sell it back to the shoe guy at like a limited price and then they just like do that um I can't fault him for it, though that's, I have a little bit of respect for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean these are. Yeah, it was an industrious mindset, but it's like there's some funny texts, I mean with the shrewd. I have a guy who I'm friends with, who he lives in New York, works on Wall Street and we met each other in university and we stay in contact, but he, he really wrestles with, uh, the whole idea of money just in general and being a Christian and he he like, talks to me all the time about this passage in Luke, with the shrewd moneylender, the guy who knows he's going to lose his job, so he just starts forgiving everybody's debt, basically stealing from his boss, but his boss isn't even mad about it. And when Jesus is saying be as gentle as doves but as wise as serpents's, like basically like, think like this, think like a snake, think like the devil, think like somebody who's trying to get over on you, um, there, but I just, anyways, my point with that was just that that was a culture where actually trying to like, just give people stuff, is feeding into a few different things. One it's like feeding into a savior complex of people who are like oh, I'm coming and I'm helping all these people who are in defect below me or they need my help. And then it's creating a psychology in these people of like I can elicit things that I need from you if I just ask or maneuver you, and I'm never going to figure out a way to gain resources myself or my own merit or work or whatever it is um, and it just perpetuates that situation, yeah, and then it creates these weird, weird kind of dichotomies there. And we see it like with my parents.
Speaker 1:Do they have a? They used to have a food truck, like they have the food truck where they deliver the meals, like to shut in some people who can't get out. But they had a food truck where they would go and they open the back of it and they would just serve homeless people under the bridge. And there was a, um, like a shelter, like you're describing, where it's open 24, 7 people can sleep there. Well, it's in the middle of the city and and they had like a few like really hard situations, but they they basically got to a point where they had to like explicitly say to every person if there's anything you don't want from this food, tell us before we put it on the plate, because once we put it on the plate, we can't, you know, put it back? Yeah, because they would just see people literally eat one thing off the plate and then throw an entire plate of food away right in front of them, like the trash cans, right by the truck.
Speaker 1:And so they kept telling people that. And, uh it, one day there's a family. It was a dad, mom, and they had three kids and the kids were like, uh, 10, 7, 5, something like that, and maybe it's a little smaller one, fourth one. Well, the family did that. And then my mom you just have to know my mom, she's like this small frail lady, and everybody who's doing this is like completely volunteers, like they don't get paid anything, they're literally taking their weekend off to come and give you food.
Speaker 1:Well, the guy threw they, they threw the food away, the wife did, I think. And then they were like, hey, you know. We said like don't you know, tell us ahead of time because we can always take that food and deliver it to somebody else, because we always run out every, every weekend, like you know, yeah, and then the dad started like belligerently cussing at everybody in the trucks and F you blah, blah, and then he took his plate of food and he threw it at them into the truck. So it was like all over my mom's face, all over everybody who's working there, and then he instructed all of his kids to throw their food into the truck. So they threw their food into the truck and so everybody who's standing in line still waiting on food is like oh snap, like what's gonna happen now?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, now they can't serve any food because all of their food went into, like the hot plates and stuff where that food, so it's all contaminated yeah and I mean it was from the front of the truck to the back, like it was on the windshield, everything, and so that was like kind of the final straw, like yeah, we just don't do this anymore, uh. And but the the crazy thing is one of the ladies who volunteered on the truck is a is a substitute teacher. She's like in her 70s, she's still substitute teach. One of the kids, uh, who did that was in a class that she was substitute teaching and then he saw her and recognized her and then began to brag to all the other kids about what he did and what his family did they.
Speaker 1:They still saw it as like and like all the people in the line were ready to like, tear them apart, the dad apart, because he's like you just screwed, screwed this up for us and the people who run that like um the shelter. So then it just the dynamic switch like we're gonna drop off the food. You guys serve it like. So that didn't, like they didn't cut the resource off, but they're like we're not gonna stand there and have people throw food and cuss at us when we're literally like they're there. So again it.
Speaker 1:It so, when people talk about, there is sometimes like a disconnect of like. When people talk about how a resource should be distributed, they're they're talking in the theoretical of other people's resources and other people's time and how it actually makes it to a person. And I saw a funny uh thing where it was about immigration and it's about people like we should just have open borders and let everybody in, and so the guys show up with a clipboard and like fantastic, we agree with you.
Speaker 2:Yes, how many how many, how many how many rooms do you have?
Speaker 1:how many rooms you have and the people like, oh no, not, not in my house. It's like and like, uh, I have kids. They'd say I have kids. Like no, these guys love kids, it's perfect. Like we're gonna sit there, send them to your place and so that's kind of. The thing is, if people become critical of like well, you should just give indiscriminately, it's like they're thinking in the same mindset of the people who don't have any relationship of where these funds come from. It's like it's an infinite bucket that I need to pull out of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pull out of. Yeah, well, and if your hands, if you're, if you've never had the responsibility yourself to get your hands dirty, it's so much easier to just think somebody else will do it, and that's that is one, one huge problem that I've. I've seen, um, specifically, people that that are. Like the amount of times that we've we had, we've had situations where someone's like, oh hey, this person needs a ride, can you do it? And it's like you already know they have a, they need a ride and you already have a car. Why don't you go get them? Like, what are you talking about? Why are you trying to find somebody else to go get them? When you have a car, you have all the means you need to go get them, and it's like it's so easy to pass off the responsibility to someone else and let the mess be somebody else's, you know, but, man, there's so much. There's nuance to this, too, though, because it's like the thing I struggle with with the poor is I think we have a responsibility to proactively help the poor. We have a responsibility to be responsible with our resources, and then I also think, from a gospel standpoint, we also have a responsibility to be taken advantage of, and I think that's something most people don't want to think about. But Jesus is. When he's talking to his disciples, he's like hey, if somebody smacks you in the face, offer them the other one. Hey, if this Roman soldier who's literally colonizing your land, oppressing your people, probably murdering your people and stealing from your people, when he says, hey, carry my no-transcript, that's hard to know when it's time to do that and when you're just enabling really bad behavior. And I think that's the line that we're always trying to balance, or the tightrope that we're trying to stand on is when am I just enabling really bad behavior? But when is God calling me to be unconditional and indiscriminately, uh, generous to to people? Um, we, we went down to Charleston, south Carolina, one year and found this guy named Damien.
Speaker 2:He was this drunk guy in this park, woke up we were out in the morning in a morning stroll woke up and he's screaming in the this park. He's like his toes are coming out of his shoes you can see his foot on the bottom of his shoe and he just like he slept in the park, probably drunk and whatnot. And Lydia and I were like let's go take him out to breakfast. So we're like, hey, do you, do you want to go out to breakfast with us? And he's like, wait what? And we're like, yeah, like, do you look hungry? You said you're hungry, why don't we just go get breakfast? And he's like, okay.
Speaker 2:So we went out and got breakfast, heard his story you know he's telling us all kinds of different stuff. I don't half of it might not have even been true. He said he got hit by a car the night before, things like that. I'm like I don't know that that's true, but sure, um. And then we, you know, we just felt like led to take him and buy him some new sneakers, and take him to CVS and get moisturizer and two, a toothbrush, toothpaste, you know, a new sweatshirt, things like that.
Speaker 2:In every store we went into with him, they all acted like oh, you're the next suckers who got loop roped into this. And every single one of them. They all looked at us like, oh, you're the next suckers who got loop roped into this. And every single one of them. They all looked at us like dude, you guys are so dumb, like Damien's been doing this every day this week to a different tourist in town, and I just felt in my heart it was like I honestly don't care. I don't care if this is, I don't care if I'm being taken advantage of by Damien, I care that his stomach is full and he has warm clothes tonight, because even if he is the worst person on planet Earth or is just a drunk and can't get his life right, I will sleep better tonight knowing he is warm and has shoes to walk around on. And has shoes to walk around on, you know.
Speaker 2:And so it is just this back and forth of like just knowing when is the right time and when is it not the time. I would struggle. I would struggle so much in that Mozambique situation, cause I would just feel, oh man, that would be so difficult, cause I would just feel like I want to be obligated, I like I just want to be inconvenienced, you know, but especially if they're using the Bible against me. But like, but I understand what you're saying, cause that's real. You know, if you, if you don't learn to go provide for yourself, you'll never, you'll just continue to wait for somebody else to do it for you. You know.
Speaker 1:Man, well, they I mean again they they had resources for the people there. So it's just like, literally like every day they're feeding 6,000 kids and they have resources there to meet those kind of needs. But the kids, they know like they want a Coca-Cola, they want something more. And the thing is is like we ate the food they ate while we were there. Like I ate for four months I'm just eating rice and beans every day. There was no breakfast. Breakfast they would give you these rolls. They were like rock hard. You had to dip them in hot tea just to get them soft enough to eat them and there was like little pieces of sand and rocks in them.
Speaker 1:So I had to be very careful that I didn't like chip a tooth, when I'm like eating these and like eating these, and then it's just rice and a plate of rice and beans and I I dropped down. I was like one 55 when I was there cause it was so hot. We're on the equator so I like was not like emaciated, but I mean I went from like one 80, yeah, One 85 to about one 55. And and I was eating like the rice and beans, like you know, every day, but still you just you just drop the weight. How long were you there? Just four months, Four months, yeah, man still.
Speaker 1:But they've been able to build hospitals. They've been able to build, they have schools and things there. But I think what you're talking about that or at least I struggle with this is probably the thing I struggle the most with. I can't say I struggle the most with, but it's something I struggle with is when Jesus talks about loving your enemies and people who do evil to you. I just honestly don't.
Speaker 2:I don't love, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't. I know that and I don't even know exactly what that looks like, but you're talking about, like, for example, the Roman soldier, that's your enemy, that that?
Speaker 2:that person. You're a presser.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're, they're. They're crucifying people in your community. Outside of every single uh city that you're going to walk into, you're going to see people naked, dying and decomposing, because they just leave them there after the fact as a symbol to uh suppress any kind of resistance, um, and to to do any kind of favors for that person, um, yeah it's humiliating it's.
Speaker 1:It's it's humiliating way, I guess, like in a way it's liberating. I mean, I've seen that scene in the Chosen where Jesus is doing this and the disciples are losing their minds and then the Romans start getting, like you know, uncomfortable about it. Comparatively, I think the closest thing that I've probably seen to it like on a at scale was I watched a movie about Gandhi, which obviously there's a lot of theatrical license that they take, but about non-aggressive resistance, where they were outside this gate and the British people were literally striking them with sticks and people would fall down, they'd be bleeding and they'd just stand back up and then it just went on for hours, dude, and then when somebody was so damaged they couldn't take anymore, then the next row of people would just step up and they just let them until the British soldiers were exhausted and then they eventually liberated themselves from that rule. But it was like a non-aggressive kind of resistance, uh, to to tyranny in a sense. Um, but yeah, that's something I I struggle deeply with and and then I guess, like in this time that we're living in, a lot of people you know have have kind of some people are moderates and they're in a flat land, they're kind of like disconnected. In the sense of like I don't really have an opinion about this stuff, in the sense of like I want to avoid any kind of pervasive in the West as a whole.
Speaker 1:I'd say like America, canada, the UK, where you have like people who are very, very, very much in like one of two camps or like gravitating towards one side of that. And some of that is just for show, but some of it, like I've dealt with clients in the past where, for example, when COVID was ramped up, that their family wouldn't meet together for Thanksgiving because they had a different viewpoint on who should be vaccinated and not vaccinated. And then they were like you know, one part of the family, someone got vaccine injured and died like days after getting the vaccine. And then they were like well, we're not going to do that. And their family's like well, we all have been vaccinated. If you don't come, we're not going to have Thanksgiving together. And then both sides are saying you have to look at the science of it.
Speaker 1:That became a really key phrase of trust the science, or look at the science, and it's so, basically, in this extremism politically and whatever kind of issue issue it is. It's like I have all the facts. No, I have all the facts and we're trying to like reverse engineer the argument to either win somebody to our side or at least dunk on them on why they're inferior to our point. And I think, like this is like one of many topics for that of like, how to address like poverty, how to address like poverty, how to address immigration, how to address, um, any issue. But it's became like pervasive, even in the, in the church, where we see denominations fracturing, like something like the united methodist church, where you see like people are just like I'm gonna anyways yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I think that the polarization it comes from this absolute insistency that you have the moral high ground, that you're intellectually superior to whoever you're dealing with, and so that whole, like arguing the science or whatever you name it, even the generosity stuff that we're talking about, it's like you can take either side. But if you have no, if you're not willing to have any nuance to a, to aent, that you have the moral high ground and everybody else is just a buffoon. You know, and I think that's the constant battle, it's the battle in the church too of you know the United Methodists or them saying like you know, this is the like. The Bible is clear that this is what it says about gender identity, and the other half is like dude, it's so black and white, it's right there. You, like Jesus made, god made them male and female, and Paul is very clear about about homosexuality and all these different.
Speaker 2:You know things, and and yet it becomes such a point of debate that it one side will take this moral superiority to say I'm like you, you don't care, you're an oppressor. You know, because, because you're oppressing everybody else's truth. You know, all of a sudden, they've. They've lost, they've elevated themselves above everybody else. They've not allowed anybody else to have any kind of a conversation, because they're like if you don't believe this, you're obviously a fascist, you're obviously a Nazi, you're obviously this, and so immediately just categorize somebody.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the most unfortunate thing is, I think that when we don't allow each other to have this nuance, even in the sense of this conversation where at the beginning of this conversation I was kind of taking the angle of like, of generosity, where people come in and take advantage of the church, and now and then towards the end, I'm ending it with it's good for us to be taken advantage of. You know what I mean, and it's not that I'm trying to just never have convictions, it's no, I have convictions, but I'm also each day my responsibility is different unto the person in front of me. It depends. You know what I mean, and so I think that's the same. It's very similar with these issues we're dealing with in our culture right now, where we have intense distrust for anyone who has a differing view, and I think that's the biggest obstacle we have to fix. Is this great distrust for someone who says I disagree with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I have a friend and he's a devout Catholic guy and he's very, very, very, very like liberal progressive on like across the board on his viewpoints. It's just like, literally he just takes a script of like whatever cnn or whatever like news channel he's watching and he just like verbatim, like, will like kind of parrot those and uh, you, there's like area, basically like I stay in friendship with him. Sometimes he says like just like, he'll cuss me out, like on, like he'll like cuss me out over instagram, like, say like crazy stuff to me but then say hey, anytime you're like in the area, like come to my house, we'll have a drink or eat something whatever. Um, but he like, he's just like, very like has very strong political. It's mostly like political stuff, uh, not so much like religiously where we're in contention, although he wants me to convert to Catholic church, but anyways, I just have like he has.
Speaker 1:Him and his wife have a ton of kids. I don't know how many kids they have like six kids, five, six, seven kids, I don't know and they he's a true Catholic then yeah, I said how many, how many kids are you going to have.
Speaker 1:He says as many as God will let us and and um, but he loves his family. He loves his, his wife, and I've spent some time with them, like together, and like his kids adore him, his wife and him Like. So it's like on that level, like that's a really high core value of mine. Priority is like family and, like you know, loving your family well, and so it's that's like kind of the point where we meet each other and we're trying to like work out the best I can. I feel like sometimes it's a little bit more one-sided in the sense of like I can, I can make some concessions of like some things that I I like about. If I look at church history and like the catholic, there's some things that I would adopt or pull, but I can't, I can't swallow everything you're giving me and I could walk through and versus versus. His side is like this is the way like all the other ways wrong yeah, but I I
Speaker 1:but I wrote a post once about how empathy has become a way. There's a maneuvering of people's compassion and empathy and these buttons within the Christian faith to weaponize, kind of like what I said earlier about brother, brother, give me your shirt. Yeah, the scripture says if someone doesn't have a shirt, you don't give it to them. You're going to hell, that kind of stuff. So I just made the observation that that's been kind of weaponized.
Speaker 1:I witnessed this in Europe. It was the word tolerance, that's what they kept saying in German age. You have to have tolerance, you have to have tolerance, you have to have tolerance, and I said me having tolerance, like we can coexist together, but I can still say your idea sucks, like, and I don't have to like say that your idea is good or right, and and it was like. It again was this kind of one-sided thing of like. If I say, yeah, I believe in the resurrection of jesus, uh, that's, that's dumb, but then it's yeah, why is it? The tolerant, the tolerant people are the least tolerant of other opinions, more inquisitive. My default, though, is is sometimes I go into like explanation mode or like, if they they present an idea, I poke hole. I'm very quick to like poke the holes in it, yeah, but I've tried to like now become more like inquisitive and ask questions to suspend my, my bias, because we all have bias. So I need to suspend my bias, explore a little bit, like what makes you actually tick and how did you, how do you get there? But I've had like close friends of mine where, especially this last election cycle, they like got very, very emotional. I had a very visceral reaction. I was like is our friendship compromised now of like 30 years because we have a different opinion or different perspective? Like is that really, uh, not from my end, but from your end, um, so I, I?
Speaker 1:It is a fascinating thing to try to like navigate this um moral superiority that people feel in their, on their position and and it's a hard thing if I'm pursuing like, if there's a hierarchy of what's good and what's right and what's true, and it's like the creator of everything exists sets on top of that, or there's something that sits on the top of that totem pole. Certainly the government or my political party is not the very top, for sure, because if I look at video evidence of like, for example, this is just an example of like Hillary Clinton or somebody like that who, like 20 years ago, says the exact opposite thing of what she's perpetuating now. That means that the moral element of this like we're talking about moral superiority is very malleable, depending on what the public opinion is at the time, like what's popular or what. What do you think people want you to hear? So you're not really standing on your own belief, you're standing on what gives me the less least amount of friction yeah, a pushback. So it certainly can't be the state, and then it certainly can't be what I feel or think in the moment, because Ethan is Ethan now, but you're also Ethan.
Speaker 1:That was a five-year-old, a 10-year-old at one point. Like you're a collective of those personalities. So if I go back to you as a five-year-old and what you believed about money and what you believed about how to spend your time and whatever, that again is malleable, depending on where you're at. So I can't really aim at that thing in the moment of what my desires are, where that's my, my hunger or my sex drive or you know, whatever it is. So I have to try to aim at something higher. And so if I'm aiming at something higher and I'm making the observation someone's not aiming high enough in that, how to like navigate that, even within myself, of like, uh, I'm still a broken person, I'm still like have capacity for, like paul said, of sinners, I'm I'm the worst. Uh, in essence is like well, how he's kind of positioned himself, uh, but we're still like trying to pursue something, something, something higher, um, it's, it's, it's a weird thing to try and navigate, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's like it's seeking the common ground. You know what I mean. Where it's like I, it's like finding that if you're like, oh, we shouldn't have borders at all, no borders in America, you know what I mean Then it's like my common ground with you is the reason you're saying that is because you think America is great and that, and that's the reason why you want to welcome people in. I love that you want to welcome people in. I think that's awesome. I also want to welcome people into our country, but I also want people to come into our country and contribute to our country. You know where I think where the conversation stops is when we start making, when culture starts making blanket statements about everybody. You know where it's like yeah, we pretend to be the Christian party, but there's a lot that isn't Christian in it. You know what I mean. And it's the same on the other side, where it's like there's this feeling of we're morally superior to everybody else. It's like you're not like, because ultimately you blanket statement and you create this polarization between your tribe versus the other tribe, and so the only solution is to go your tribe versus the other tribe, and so the only solution is to go to war with the other tribe and instead it's like one of the things like when we were growing up, the big thing was green, everything's got to be green, right, and don't get. We're not going to go into the green new deal. But it was like protect the environment, protect the Amazon, protect the oceans. You know it was like that was really big when I was growing up. It was like protect the Amazon, protect the oceans. You know it was like that was really big when I was growing up. It was like protect, protect the environment. I'm super thankful that, even though the conservatives were all saying this is ridiculous, I'm super thankful that there's people in our world that are like I want to protect the earth and and protect our oceans and our lakes and our national forests and things like that, cause if we didn't, it'd just be in our national forests and things like that, because if we didn't, it'd just be. It's already bad, but it'd be way worse if we didn't have this focus on it. And I think so often we just we swing so far and we think like, well, I'm going to fix the problem by swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side, and in reality it's where? Where do we have common ground and where can we agree on something?
Speaker 2:But it's, it is where I get triggered, as I have a friend who sounds like your friend, uh, where he says the most polarization, blanket, triggering statements ever. Um, like, one of the things he uh was, was said to me, was all white people are racist. And I'm like, uh, that's confusing for me because I adopted my fourth son and he's black and there's nothing in me that sees him as any different than all my other kids. And so how is how is every white person racist, you know? So those statements that gets me fired up and angry really quick because it's this huge, massive polarization statement that just is not, it's not true, like there's not, there's not truth in that across the whole board. There might be truth in some sample groups, but it's not true across the whole board.
Speaker 2:So we like to me, what I, what gets me going, is when we start hearing blanket statements about the left or the right in our country. Like I, I can't. I get irritated, even when in in different contexts, where Republicans are even in my own family are throwing out these huge, blanket statements about Democrats and Democrats are making these huge statements about Republicans. I'm like, guys, this is ridiculous, you know, it's just so. Uh, I'm definitely like, like, when it comes to politics, I'm like get me out of here, cause I I'm just like, I just get angry that everybody's throwing everybody else under the bus and nobody wants to just sit down and have a conversation.
Speaker 1:You know yeah, but well, that guy, that guy who I was talking, talking about, he, he just said, yeah, the, the, and this is guy who, like, used to vote republican. But he's like, uh, yeah, the republican party is completely demonic, it's, it's uh, ran by the devil, and blah, blah, blah. And then I hear people like I come from a very like rural part of West Virginia where people are very conservative, so they'll say the exact same thing about the Democratic Party. And I'm just like, yeah, at the end of the day, like, I think, like to your point, you just have individuals that make up a collective and there are like ideas that get perpetuated by the collective. But it is kind of wild, like like, yeah, just to hear like a very provocative statement and I don't know, I can make very provocative statements like that about the history of the Catholic church or something like that. I'm like, well, all Catholics are this cause. It's the history, but it but it.
Speaker 2:It's just like it's not it's just like not, it's not true. There's so much, there's a lot of rich. There's a lot of rich gifts and expressions and traditions that come from the catholic faith that moved its way into protestantism.
Speaker 1:And yeah, you know and people are people at the end of the day, like there's individuals who, anywhere you go, and so when you're sitting in front of somebody you kind of have to reset. I think everybody does have bias. That's just going to be a natural, ingrained thing. And I heard podcasts go down because you made the statement or this guy made the statement. Like all white, white people are are racist and I they find it interesting because I think all anybody in any group is going to have a natural bias to some degree on some measure, depending on what their condition with. But we have friends of ours who they immigrate here. The mom is Congolese and then the kids are. The dad was South African, they grew up in South Africa and they just make the observation when they came here that in their school the Black American kids will have nothing to do with the African kids. And then they make fun of them and pick on them because they stink and they're different and all this stuff they say and it's just like, well, what is that?
Speaker 1:thing, but I think again, you're just resetting. Every time you sit down with a person and people are very complicated and then circling back to what you said originally, even if somebody has these kind of biases or says these things, how do I treat this person who's in front of me? Because if we go farther and farther and farther into extremism, you dehumanize another person.
Speaker 1:You dehumanize another person and then we get into a situation like we did in this country in the Civil War, where you literally had family members killing each other, Segmenting over political views and both parties assuming moral superiority. Communication just breaks down.
Speaker 2:Well, it happens at such small levels and then it happens at these massive levels and I think that's where, uh, we can even bring this back to our um, generosity, kind of giving thing is one of the ways that we can take that moral high ground is to say, well, the person's poor because is to say, well, the person's poor because they did drugs, because they're a drunk, they're this. And we take this like I'm going to identify you by your problems, not by who, like God, that you're made in God's image and that, that, like, there's something, there's a purpose and plan for your life, and so I'm not willing to just box you into that. You're this because of this. I think that's where it's like we have to have this mindset of I will not take this moral high ground above you. And that's where commonality comes into play, where you can be the richest.
Speaker 2:I truly believe Jesus is the example. He left the riches of heaven, left everything, all the inheritance, everything that he had in heaven. He comes down because he found something in common and he puts on flesh and blood us who are poor and blind and naked, you know, and then he becomes crucified, naked, and you know, and I think that's where, when we're talking generosity, when we're talking politics, it always comes back to this issue of commonality of of. I can't view you as less than me, I can't view you as something worse than me, because, because, ultimately, if I was put in your situation, with the parents you had and the upbringing you had, I probably would be right where you are. And so, today, what's my responsibility for you? And it might be being generous and buying somebody a meal, or buying somebody a hotel, or helping somebody pay rent, or it might be here's a Dave Ramsey book. You should read this, um or it's hey, I'll drive you to the shelter, or I'll. Or hey, go check this out this. There's this nonprofit in town.
Speaker 2:I think that's where we have to take that responsibility and and and not just immediately divide ourselves and say you're not like me, I'm not like you. You know, um, but that's hard to do. It's hard to do and especially in those situations when you've got people and dads who are throwing stuff into the food trucks, of people who are literally trying to help them, and it's really hard to have mercy and grace for someone like that who, essentially, is doing something. Somebody is doing something out of the kindness of their heart and they literally ruin it for everybody. That's, that's a bummer. That's. That is where I the only thing I can say is I don't know, I don't know what to do with that. You know, that's where the justice in me comes out, and it it's man.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah to your point. I think everything's just kind of nuanced in the, in the, in the situation, and I think it's like ramsey. I heard him say once that like I don't own anything, I'm just stewarding what god gives me, and that's kind of how he looked at his, how he's saying he looked at his life and his resources. So if we posture even our life, right that the fact that our heart's still beating in our chest because it could not be the next beat, that you're going to try to use your life like that. But then there's a tension of like Jesus was never, like an absolutist, in a sense, like he would. This passage where he's talking about not casting your pearls before swine. So it's like we, we talk. We would of course want, like everybody to hear, hear the gospel, or like hear, hear truth. But he's just saying like don't even do that, cause they're going to tramp, like they're going to trample the pearls into the mud like pigs and then turn on you and like tear you to pieces. Yeah, so there's this nuance of and then also within himself, when that lady is trying to push through the crowd and grab a hold of them, you have to think everybody had a need, everybody had something they wanted, everybody wanted a piece of them to a degree. And so just having some discernment of what am I supposed to give in this situation, I mean that's like Baker's kind of deal. She's like stop for the one. So it's just like in the day there's going to be somebody who, for divine providence or like just through the everyday goings of life, that is going to cross your path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're very objective, oriented in Western culture, like getting from one thing to the next thing, the next thing, but being people focused, like communal focused, and it not having, not having to like of, like a ritual of like well, we, we pray in the mornings and the evenings. And then she understands, like you know, she'll pray for people. She sees that they're hurt. And we went to the park to ride bikes and her and her brother got the bikes out and they were very excited.
Speaker 1:Well, there's people that walk on this flat pancake, like paved path for like physical therapy and stuff, and there's a lady with these two walking sticks kind of going along and it's probably like a football field length away, like on that far other side, and she just saw and saw. She's like what's wrong? I was like, well, her legs probably hurt, that's why she has that cane. And so then my daughter just like took off. And so then I'm like kind of lightly jogging after and she gets up to the lady and I don't know what's getting ready to happen, and then she says to the lady hey, can I?
Speaker 1:she's like, what happened to your leg? And she's like, oh, I just got a surgery and it's hurt, whatever had an accident. And then a surgery. And then my daughter is like, can I pray? And the lady is like, what? And I was like she wants to pray for your leg. She, she wants to pray for your leg. She's asking if she can. And the lady's like, yeah, and then my daughter just unsolicited puts her hand on her leg and then just says, jesus, make the pain go away. Wow, something, something, something. And then she takes her hand off. We look up the lady's crying and she's like, thank you so much. And then my daughter's like, yeah, and then Chase from Paw Patrol did this and this and this and this.
Speaker 2:And then this runs away.
Speaker 1:And the lady's like what? And I was like I don't know she's talking about Paw Patrol now, but I hope that was okay. She's like, yeah, she's like I've never had anybody kind of approach me in public like that and I was like, yeah, that's her IO, she'll do that with people. So it's not necessarily that people need like you know a hundred bucks or a rhyme, but just seeing the person and I feel like my daughter's a lot better at that, to your point, like I feel like as the father and the husband, I have to protect our resources and I have to, but that kind of comes from a sense of ownership. And so when Ramsey's saying like all this is God'm just like stewarding it, yes, it's a little bit.
Speaker 1:That's hard dude yeah yes, it's hard. Yeah, um, well, cool, any any? Uh, I know you say you have to wrap up here and and and take off. Is there any anything you wanted to bring up? Anything we talked about or didn't talk about, or you felt like you want to kind of wrap up with?
Speaker 2:no, no, I think that I think we we pretty nailed it, nailed it pretty good yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate you taking the time to hop on, man, and thanks for having me. Yeah, I'll drop the links and stuff to your church. Do you guys stream at all?
Speaker 2:We have a YouTube channel. We just post our sermons after, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'll just post all those links in the description and everything, and then people can check it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, this was a blast Great conversation, everything, and then people can check it out. Yeah, yeah, this was a blast, great conversation. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh see, here I've been thinking a lot about morality lately.
Speaker 1:Not the kind that's trendy or convenient, but the kind that cs, lewis and tolkien wrote about. The kind where you choose to do what's right, not because you're guaranteed to win, but because it's right. Period when you fight the battle knowing you might lose, knowing you might be killed, knowing that you might sacrifice even more than that, but you'll fight anyways Because there's something sacred in that fight itself. There's a thread running through his stories where characters who resist evil, not because they're sure of the outcome but because their conscience won't let them do otherwise. And just when it all seems lost, some unexpected outside force breaks in. It's not always flashy, but it's enough.
Speaker 1:And as we look at the state of the world, the noise, the division, the weight of it all, it's attempting to think we're slipping past the point of return. But history runs in cycles. People have felt this before and time and time again. But history runs in cycles. People have felt this before and time and time again. Small acts of courage carried out by ordinary people shifted the tide.
Speaker 1:I've heard so many times. People said I couldn't imagine raising kids in a world like this. But every generation says that If today stirred something in you frustration, hope, convictions, questions great, that means you were listening and paying attention and in a world that profits from distraction, division, staying oriented to what matters is a kind of quiet rebellion in of itself. Poverty, justice, truth these are not topics that anybody's going to solve in one sitting. People have been trying to solve this forever, but maybe we're not meant to completely solve it. Maybe these questions are meant to be carried so that we know how to orientate ourselves and do that together. And maybe the wind isn't having all the right answers. Maybe it's being the kind of person who just keeps asking the questions and refuses to stop seeing the person in front of them as more than just a problem or a position or a statistic.
Speaker 1:If this episode meant something to you, by all means share it, pass it on, start a conversation, consider that your assignment and, if you want to keep walking with us, subscribe, leave a review on Apple or Spotify. Wherever you enjoy podcasts, support the show if you'd like. It's not free. It helps me to keep building something that's thoughtful, unhurried and grounded in real connection. Until next time, stay rooted, stay curious and don't be afraid to carry something heavy. Bye-bye you.
